Liquor Me Up With Some Religion Already
Posted on 28. Jun, 2009 by dewde in General
Lately I’ve been wondering what the big, hairy deal is with Christians and profanity. I was reading Church Marketing Sucks and I was taken aback by a recent post. Pastor Ed from Texas is discouraged by modern day cussing pastors. He used examples of the offending vulgarities and they were words like “pissed off” and “crap” and “sucks” and frankly I don’t get it.
First of all, someone needs to teach that dude how to cuss all right and proper like. I know profanity and that isn’t it! I mean, didn’t God himself have some strong feelings about “He that pisseth against the wall“?
I know I haven’t been in the club very long, but I’m still mystified. I’m assuming if he doesn’t like crap, he certainly doesn’t approve of real profanity. I read the bible roughly 5 or 6 times a week. I actually enjoy it and look forward to it. So I would think that the concerns with cussing would be, you know, obvious to me. So far they are not.
I grew up in a military family from the northern U.S. so I don’t even notice profanity half the time. It was always just a part of the scenery. It’s not even considered profane by the speaker or the recipient in most cases. It’s common dialog.
Ironically, however, I have made it a personal goal not to use profanity and for the most part, I don’t. I have my moments where I slip into old habits, but largely my language is church-appropriate on a daily basis. Here’s the thing though, I don’t do it for Jesus or for any religious conviction. My reasoning is that I want people to understand me and consider my points of view. I want to be seen as credible (don’t we all?). I don’t want my choice of words to interfere with what I have to say. In light of this, I took a look at all people and I realized the following:
A. People who cuss are tolerant of people who do not. For the most part they are understanding and respectful of the culture of the non-profane.
B. People who don’t cuss are not tolerant of people who do. For the most part if you use profanity, they will stop listening to you and avoid you entirely.
Therefore:
C. The path of most effective communication is one without cussing.
I commented in response to the “cussing pastor” post and now I’m wondering if it’s a valid perspective.
Ed has Southern Baptist tunnel vision. And I’m not talking about his theology, I’m talking about his culture. To the majority of the U.S., it’s only the reached people who are offended by “bad language”.
So if you want to save the saved, keep on wasting time on this topic. If you want to introduce unreached people to Jesus, speak to them plainly, in their vernacular.
I’m a hypocrite. I know this. Not only am I wasting more time on this, I’ve invited you to do the same. If I’d have known I was going to write this post, I can assure you I wouldn’t have written that 
.
I’m not advocating that people who do not use cuss words start using them in order to artificially impress others. Unless of course someone has a video camera rolling because as that scene plays out in my mind it is awkward and hilarious. What I am advocating, or at least questioning, is whether or not we should be judging Christians who already use cuss words as a natural part of their vocabulary. If I am a Christian and I’m hanging out with my friends who use cuss words as a part of everyday language, and I am fluent in the same vernacular, is it right or wrong for me to speak the common tongue?
And so, a paradox. On the one hand, I don’t want my girls to grow up with potty-mouths. On the other, I don’t want them to feel awkward or uncomfortable around people that choose to be different than them.
It seems to me that we Christians are artisan wall-builders. And the tragedy is that all of the walls we erect just so happen to be strategically positioned between nonbelievers and Jesus.
Is it only the reached people that are offended by profanity? If so, does that say something? Is profanity in the ear of the beholder? I’m searching, here. So bust out your bibles and liquor me up with some religion already. Clearly, I need it.
Chris F.
Jun 29th, 2009
There's a certain something in well-placed profanity that increases the precision of spoken words. Sometimes there's really no other correct way to say "oh, my. This is a most unfortunate situation that I find myself in" than with one or two choice words muttered with exasperation.
It's harder to justify in written language (except when arguing with evolution denialists, of course).
Silent D
Jun 29th, 2009
I've seen a bunch of different approaches to this, and the jury's still out. I can see the argument that we as Christians we should strive to imitate Christ in every form of holiness, and I don't know that flagrant profanity falls in that category.
Still, I see no scriptural precedent for giving particular words a power they don't warrant. Should certain words be taboo simply because of a very charged meaning, sexual or otherwise? Really, to precisely express particular thoughts and emotions, there's often no suitable alternative. Further, in so many social circles, profanity is nothing more than part of their dialect. Something like soda vs. pop–it's more of a sociolinguistic issue than right or wrong.
Anyway, I personally try not to use profanity unless I really mean it. There is a time and place for an F-bomb. But then, a lot of that stems from the crowds I hang around, which typically frown on profanity. It seems to be more of a situational thing than anything else. If I were to spend a lot of time around people who used profanity a lot, I'd probably use it without even thinking about it in that circle, while abstaining in other groups.
By the way, nice observation on the uncanny ability of the church to wall herself off from unbelievers. I hadn't thought about it that way.
stephenbateman
Jun 29th, 2009
I used to cuss because I was insecure and wanted to impress my friends (sad right?), which seems wrong. Scripture says "no unwholesome talk" which is…a lot…of the words I say.
You're A/B/C points are right on.
friar_don
Jun 29th, 2009
the "no unwholesome talk" actually is a Greek reference to gossip and "lying to gain position over another." Not so much swear words.
stephenbateman
Jun 30th, 2009
good call. Same point though that the language extends way beyond a handful of "the bad words"
Turff
Jun 29th, 2009
The one scriptural response that comes to me is the bit about being a stumbling block. Granted, I think that's part of your point in the other direction as well. To me, one of the biggest stumbling blocks is when peoples (pardon me) BS Radar starts pinging. That can go off from insincerity in either direction. I recently teased one of my former youth about how it sounded like he was forming a "Cussers for Christ" chapter. I don't think deliberately introducing profanity is right, but you are dead on about the wall building, too. Akin to your comments about effective communication, I believe that the use of too much profanity demonstrates a marked lack of command of the English language. Then again, I occasionally lose that grasp myself.
friar_don
Jun 29th, 2009
There are many points in the Bible in which Greek or Hebrew "cuss" words are used. We have the examples of Jesus using the word "Racca" in Matthew to tell people not to use it. Paul uses the 2000 year old equivalent of a four-letter "s" word to describe religion and human effort.
I believe cursing a person is evil. If you call someone by a curse or repeatedly tear anyone down (even with "mild" words like jerk or idiot) you are setting out to do the work of Satan. You are tearing down God's creation.
On the other hand. If you stub your toe and drop a cuss word, or ask someone "what in the hell do you think you are doing" when they are about to jack something up, I believe it is ok. Some of the time a well placed curse is an effective attention getter (as you said in your post).
Dewdette
Jun 29th, 2009
Perhaps you should go back and listen to "God and your Bod" again. http://resources.northpoint.org/store/shop.do?cID... Here are the verses that are referenced for this series.
Ephesians 4:29-30 29 Let no corrupt speech proceed out of your mouth, but such as is good for edifying as the need may be, that it may give grace to them that hear.30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, in whom ye were sealed unto the day of redemption.
Matthew 15:17-20 18 But the things which proceed out of the mouth come forth out of the heart; and they defile the man.19 For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, railings:20 these are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not the man.
Proverbs 4:23 23 Keep thy heart with all diligence;24 Put away from thee a wayward mouth,25 Let thine eyes look right on,
dewde
Jun 29th, 2009
Whoo hoo! My wife knows my blog exists! This is awesome! I so totally disagree that those references have much, if any, thing to do with profanity but hey! I'm just so darn tootin pleased as punch that you commented on my (our?) blog!
YEEEEAAAAHHHHH!!!!!
::: big hugs :::
Love ya!
peace|dewde
human3rror
Jul 4th, 2009
lame.
Jay
Jun 29th, 2009
My wife and I have been having a discussion about this ever since Ed Young's video.
We both agree that a Pastor shouldn't be using words like "sucks", "pissed off" and "crap" from the pulpit. It's just not necessary and Pastors are and should be held to a higher standard in some respects than their flock. There are pretty strong scriptural references regarding using foul language. One of my favorite books, James says:
"From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so." (James 3:10)
Granted, James appeared to be talking more about cursing people rather than just cursing in general. Still, I think our goal is to be as much like Jesus as possible, and that includes our language.
That being said I am going to strongly disagree with the whole of idea of speaking to people in their vernacular in order to introduce Jesus to the unreached. I don't need to use foul language any more than I need to drink with alcoholics or do drugs with addicts in order to introduce them to Jesus. Now, where we can lose someone who we're witnessing to is if we stop them from telling us their story and say, "Can you please stop cursing?" Those kinds of things can be dealt with afterward. If we have the audience of a person who is willing to pour their hearts out to us and they curse up a storm doing so, then so be it. At that point, what they're saying is more important than how they're saying it. It doesn't mean however, that we need to respond in the same manner.
It's the same when we're with friends who aren't Christ followers. Just because they're cursing doesn't mean we have to. Colossians 4:6 says, "Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone." Again, we should not play judge and start telling people not to use curse words around you because then you're just being….judgmental and it turns people off.
By the same token, I am at a disagreement with people over what constitutes "cursing." I'll say something "sucks" from time to time and I don't think it is a big deal. Nor do I think saying, "That thing's a piece of crap" is bad. Some people will say, "Oh but you're just saying crap because you really want to say s–t." Really? So when we talk about a baby with a "poopy diaper" are we saying that because we really want to say "sh—y diaper"? It's silly.
dewde
Jun 30th, 2009
I love your point about not needing to do drugs to reach drug addicts or not needing to drink in order to reach alcoholics. I think that exposes serious flaws in my line of thinking.
With the whole blessing and cursing deal, I don't see how profanity has anything to do with blessing and cursing someone. I can use my words to destroy my home and cripple my daughters emotionally for the rest of their lives, in essence… curse them, without a single expletive.
"You'll never be good enough."
"I wanted a son, not you"
"You are proof God makes mistakes."
Conversely, I can bless a person when they are at their lowest point. I can physically pick them up off the floor, look at them through tear-stained eyes and say, "I will never fucking leave you, man. I know you're dealing with a lot of shit right now and you think you can't count on anybody. You can't count on God. You can't count on me. You can't even count on yourself. Well I want you to know two things. You can always, ALWAYS count on God. And, as long as I'm breathing, you can always count on me."
peace|dewde
Jay
Jun 30th, 2009
Good points. I didn't think about it like that.
celiadyer
Jun 29th, 2009
Dewde, what a great post! So glad for your comments to Ed from Texas, I might have to add my own. It profoundly discourages me that anyone is wringing their hands and writing about something so trivial with all the misery and loneliness in need of love and grace. In our previous couples small group, we had a Federal Judge in our midst who, let's just say, you're lawyer would be wringing hands if your case was assigned to him. He shared his exemplary life experiences in our group each week (well-intended but obnoxious, nevertheless). One night, he told us he had not uttered a word of profanity in 12 years to which my husband replied, "No sh*t?" which cracked everyone up. (I didn't ask him if he had *thought* any words of profanity, just sayin'…). Great and bold post.
Adam_S
Jun 29th, 2009
My comment on Ed's blog is a different take. I agree with Jay's basic point. And I agree with your ABC points about why you don't curse. But my frustration with Ed and many other anti-cursing advocates is that what they are doing is removing a language of frustration from Christian vocabulary. We as Christians have much that we should be frustrated about. If we don't have a way to be frustrated and be Christian then we are ignoring a range of emotion that is both valid and part of Christ's own example.
Most, if not all of the words that Ed Young used were not cursing in the biblical sense (either using the Lord's name in vain or actually calling harm from God on someone). The words that Ed Young complains about are either variations of words describing bodily functions (that now really mean something else) or words that are just corse according to proper language usage. I don't think we should be drawing a bright line about what words are ok (I agree with Dewde – regional and cultural differences really do matter in this poing), but if you do draw a bright line, then you need to be more careful.
dewde
Jun 29th, 2009
That makes a whole heap of sense to me.
peace|dewde
dewde
Jun 29th, 2009
So Dewdette's totally awesome Granny whom I love and adore has weighed in on this topic and I want to share it.
"Hay, young'en. Yeah, I read it. I believe if you fool around with the potty long enough, you will end up with some on you! Can't see how that would attract too many people. And just can't see going into the Holy of Holies smelling like a potty."
I love her, she is terrific.
peace|dewde
Chris F.
Jun 29th, 2009
Um, can I get a ruling on the definition of "holy of holies," please? I think something got lost in the translation to, um, UTF-8. Does that mean what I think that means? The "into" preposition makes it awfully ambiguous.
Glenn
Jul 7th, 2009
Granny's theology is more susinct than most and makes great wisdom. I'm so late in reading this blog, but have enjoyed the dialogue.
Jonathan
Jun 29th, 2009
Great post Dewde. This has been something I've struggled with for awhile because I was taught for years that cussing is sinful, but within the past couple years I've been questioning what is Biblical vs. what is traditional or cultural. For example, when my grandmother was a child, "crap" was considered a cussword by her family, peer, etc, but by the time she had children, it was just slang. So it was someone's interpretation of the Bible based mostly on the culture they were in. Fast forward to today; I have friends who are uncomfortable with any kind of slang while other friends of mine don't care what you say in their presence.
I've just begun to ask myself, "Will this offend someone or cause division?". I realize I can't please everyone, but if cussing offends one particular friend of mine then I do my best to not cuss in front of them. Just my two cents.
Chris F.
Jun 29th, 2009
Bingo. This is a perfect everyday example of how biblical interpetation is dependent on cultural norms. Cultures change and mature, and interpretation of the bible follows suit. When your main motivating factor is your relationships with your family or peers (as it should be), it shouldn't matter what the Bible says. But, conveniently, it's possible to reinterpret the text just in time to realize that you were right all along.
Mikes
Jul 1st, 2009
So right. When people are stumbled with what we say, that's when we change and tame our tongues.
JasonM
Jun 29th, 2009
Interesting thoughts here. Words are simply a communication vehicle, what the communication conveys or intends is more important in my opinion. Words are cultural by nature, cuss words are not universal, or permanet. Some people think using cuss words is a sign of limited intelligence due to lack of vocabulary. Why draw out an elegantly worded description of something not elegant in its own nature, like loosing your job or getting injured , when one 2 or 3 silibal word gets the point across. If a curse word tells me exactly how someone feels, and a longer, softer more PC description of those feelings leaves me unsure of exactly how strong this person feels about something, I'll take the direct message. Just to throw my 2cents in. %&$#
celiadyer
Jun 29th, 2009
Dewde, what a great post! So glad for your comments to Ed from Texas, I might have to add my own. It profoundly discourages me that anyone is wringing their hands and writing about something so trivial with all the misery and loneliness in need of love and grace. In our previous couples small group, we had a Federal Judge in our midst who, let's just say, you're lawyer would be wringing hands if your case was assigned to him. He shared his exemplary life experiences in our group each week (well-intended but obnoxious nevertheless). One night, he told us he had not uttered a word of profanity in 12 years to which my husband replied, "No sh*t?" which cracked everyone up. (I didn't ask him if he had *thought* any words of profanity, just sayin'…). Great and bold post.
dewde
Jun 29th, 2009
Thanks for jumping in, Celia! That comment your husband made would have totally landed me in the dog house if I had tried to pull that… but it would have been totally worth it. I can understand the judge's reservations about opening up and and revealing faults, but if you are not prepared to do so you may as well stay home and drop out of the group because you've missed the point entirely.
I stopped by your Tech Drawl site a few weeks ago. Very impressed. One of these days one of my ideas may be elevator-pitch-worthy, but not so far.
peace|dewde
dewde
Jun 29th, 2009
You don't get to learn about the Holy of Holies until Operating Thetan Level III. So it's above your clearance ATM.
peace|dewde
Chris F.
Jun 29th, 2009
Dude, I even got my E-meter. Let me in! Let me in!
Mikes
Jul 1st, 2009
First of all, i'm not offended with profane and cuss words because I understand if they say that. Maybe because of the culture they are in or maybe because that's how they have been brought up. I have no power to judge. BUT As a Christian, even though I understand (and I'm not irritated), I do not conform. I need to be a model to what is right. There's a power in every word we speak. As the Bible had said, "I believe therefore I spoke" and on other verse it says "from the outburst of your heart the mouth speaks.". With both of these verse, when christian say profane words, it reflects what we have in our hearts. We are first among the rest should try our best to tame our tongues.
With what you said, "for us to reach them, we need to speak their language" If you mean to go with them and to ride along what they do. That's incorrect! Jesus came and dined with tthe sinners but he didn't use the same language the sinners use because he's diffeent. we are different. we reach them by being one.
Adam_S
Jul 1st, 2009
When you say that Jesus didn't use the same language I am not sure you are completely correct. The langauge that Jesus used to describe the Pharasees was very strong (our bibles usually tone it down a bit). And because we don't know everything that Jesus said to claim that Jesus never did something can be hard. What we can say is that he didn't sin. So the language that he did use was not sinful. Paul was not without sin, but the langauge that he used in a couple places was also quite strong. As was noted above, he used the rough equivelent of s**t, and told a people that they should cut their balls off if they were going to teach things inappropriately about cirucumcision. My hebrew and greek scholar friends all agree that our bibles are cleaned up versions of what is sometimes there.
MTMTMT
Jul 1st, 2009
I'm with the dude that brought up the stumbling block! I am a believer who struggles with potty mouth. It is something I am convicted about personally so while it may be good for the goose it aint good for the gander and well yeah… if my pastor is a pissin and a suckin away at the pulpit well yeah… it most definitely could cause me to stumble… a little leaven leavens the whole lump!
I'm with Granny too… don't want no one smellin like poo around me if they aint wearin diapers.
Wendy
Jul 3rd, 2009
I have never viewed cursing as a Christian/Non-Christian thing. I see it as a temper/non-temper thing. I guess if you want to tie it back, it goes under self-control? I just know that I was a cussing fool before I had kids, now I try to demonstrate that the more carefully you select your words, the more people "hear" you, but that includes all words. I think that most people curse when they are trying to emphasize something or when angry. That, I don't even notice. I do notice when people have the 'F' word as their go-to adverb – it makes me think they are illiterate or from New Jersey (shout out to Elliot). And I do HATE HATE HATE it when a pastor does it to look cool. It comes off as fake, bogus, sad, pathetic… whatever. I can't explain it, I just hate it. Its like when they try to use cool phrases, so the problem I have isn't with the exact words.
mongerOfWar
Jul 8th, 2009
You should totally invite me over more often. I'll gladly teach your daughters to cuss!
Chris F.
Jul 13th, 2009
Fucking vindicated!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20090712/sc_l...
matthew lane
Jul 21st, 2009
i'm a believer and i *like* to cuss. maybe jesus is not in my heart, a fellow believer might wonder. or maybe we just need to get over petty issues and focus on truly important matters like loving our neighbor. most of my neighbors cuss, as well. i'm not trying to be like my neighbors, but i really do enjoy their company. sometimes it's fun talking to them as a mere mortal human being, instead of a hyper-religious churchgoer blessed with eternal life and an agenda to make everyone and everything holy and clean. for some reason i thought that was jesus' job. in fact, pretty sure he already accomplished it and love would solve 100% of our problems in this world. but, maybe my fellow believers are right, and we should keep talking about whether or not cussing sucks.
matthew lane
Jul 21st, 2009
for the record, i don't think it sucks. i think it's fucking awesome. sorry, monkey fighting awesome. or monday to friday awesome. or maryland farmer awesome. church people love euphemisms, because they mean the same thing in intent, yet don't sound dirty (unclean). i guess this means intent doesn't matter, just the sounds you make with your mouth. therefor, i'm going to try to be as offensive as possible whenever i speak from now on, without using actual profanity. because then i'm expressing the same thing, without having to lose my soul in the process. it's a real win-win situation! or lose if you understand that when i say you look distinguished, i mean old, and healthy, i mean fat. if i said 'fucking distinguished' or "fucking healthy", i would especially mean it, but then you would be offended right off the bat, instead of analyzing the nuance and being offended later by the realization of what i was actually saying. which is, again, that you're old and fat. it's much more preferable that i not offend you to your face, rather than cause you to wrestle with what i might have meant due to your own insecurities. this may even bring me pleasure.
dewde
Jul 21st, 2009
I agree that the spirit behind an action (intent) is more important than the action at face value. In fact, like I said above to Jay, I can do an equal amount of harm with my rated-G words as I can with my NC-17 ones.
peace|dewde