Here is a thing that always bugged me as an Atheist and hasn’t changed since I crossed over to the La La Land of Christian Lemmingism. I seem to remember getting a lot of crap over the notion that, as an Atheist, I believed this one life was all I had.
“Isn’t it sad or depressing to think that when you die you simply cease to exist?” my well-meaning Christian friends would query.
It always seemed obvious to me then, and still does now, that nothing was better than Hell. Wait, that didn’t come out right. What I mean is that ceasing to exist is preferred to spending an eternity in a place like Hell. It is more sad and depressing to me that people who spent an inordinate amount of time doing good on this earth would go to Hell for an eternity than that all people would have one, short, finite life. I mean really. Which presents the greater tragedy?
Another thing I would hear along the same lines is, “If this life is all you have then where is your incentive to be good? Wouldn’t you be motivated to lie and exploit and deceive and cheat since you have just this one life to seek pleasure and no fear of eternal consequences?”
The logic goes, since Atheists don’t know God, the source of all goodness, how could they be anything but powerless to chase after both the carnal and the diabolical sins? They can’t help it, right?
No.
Atheists are not so shallow and immoral as you might expect. They believe in love and justice and honor and respect and the sanctity of marriage. They die for our country, uphold our laws, research our medical treatments, and educate our children. When you believe that you only have one, finite life… your motivation is to seek pleasure to be sure. But if the good things in life really are good, and the bad things really are bad, what greater pleasure could there be than spending a single, finite life pursuing the joy and satisfaction that can only be achieved by the higher virtues?
Besides, I think it is best that we, as Christians, not be too quick to pull out our moral report card to compare it against others. I’m not convinced I’d be too keen on the results, personally.
the results would suck.
The score for hypocrisy would be especially painful…
Having been an agnostic/atheist before Christ turned everything upside down, I'm glad you got this out here. One of my goals as a novelist is to write agnostic/atheist characters with a heart for helping others understand their worldview—rather than just assuming they do. Thanks for this great post, and I'm passing it on to others to read.
Wow. Thanks for validating my new perspective, that we can't scare people out of hell, we've got to love them into heaven. I mean, seriously, wouldn't it make more sense to show them the good stuff about God — starting with NOT judging them for their beliefs?
As for results on my report card? D- just for this past week. One stupid decision, made with good intent, still hurt someone very deeply. Now, that relationship is back past square one.
Thanks for sharing. Lots of food for thought. There have been many things in this past year that have shaken up my world view.
The results wouldn't be too good. Somebody I know said that if you walked into the average church service and did a "truth poll" about what people sitting in that congregation had done during their lives, the results would shocking.
You could reverse that whole mindset. I've known many "Christians" who feel they can be as immoral as they want because at the end of the day they have the "get of jail" prayer, "Forgive me for my sins, God. Thanks, you're the best!" Morality and beliefs rarely coincide because humans are happy to live with comfortable double standards.
Man, great post. Thanks! We do tend to make silly arguments based on some ridiculous assumptions of people, don't we?
Chris,
There is so much Hypocrisy in our churches today.
THe following is from: http://www.gotquestions.org/Christians-hypocrites…
Question: "Why are all Christians hypocrites? Are all Christians hypocrites?"
“Of course, not everyone who claims to be a Christian is truly a Christian. Perhaps all or most of the famous hypocrites among Christians were in fact pretenders and deceivers. To this day, prominent Christian leaders have fallen into terrible sins. Financial and sexual scandals sometimes seem to plague the Christian community. However, instead of taking the actions of a few and using them to denigrate the whole community of Christians, we need to ask whether all those who claim to be Christians really are.”
Great Post! I think you may also like to read Unchristian by David Kinnaman
We can’t just fill out a check-list.
What the… ? I come to Dewde's blog expecting (yes, hoping) for some moderately upset Christian action and all I see are people agreeing with him! I have to say it's slightly refreshing. I do agree in large part with DreadedRafifi's comment about the "get out of jail prayer." I think that sometimes gives people carte blanche to do anything, as long as they can rationalize that it's for some future greater good.
So, if you all seem to agree that Christians don't have an actual moral high ground, let me throw this out there… why be a Christian at all? Why not just think that Jesus said some important things about morality? He did, but nothing he said was entirely unique. Why not just think he was an important historical (or mythical, whatever… still doesn't have to diminish the message, IMO) character who synthesized some key ethical principles in a time of unrest in his region? If right and wrong (and the ability to act based on those ideas of right and wrong) transcend Christianity, then why is it even tempting to believe in the resurrection? (Which I'm guessing is probably the key tenet in being a Christian…)
well, yeah, it's about the resurrection and eternity. it's about something larger than myself.
But that's effectively meaningless to say "it's about something larger" when you have no clue what that really is. If what Dewde says is true (and I think it is), then Christians and non-Christians act in basically the same ways in their lives. Of course, there are bad apples in all groups, but in general, we're all the same. Why actually subscribe to the Jesus thing when it has zero noticeable effect on your judgments of right and wrong? Does God just want to be placated, even though your exaltation of him has no effect on how you make decisions and how you treat others?
I'm not going to pretend that my answer to your question will change your life or even be the answer that you're looking for or whatever. Nor is it the answer I'm saying anyone share's with me. But this is my answer to the "Why believe in God at all" question.
I believe in God because I choose to believe in something greater than creation. I believe that everything we can discover within creation (life, the universe and everything) was put in motion by something or someone greater than creation itself. I choose to believe that the something that set it all in motion is ultimately good.
I believe in Jesus specifically because I think that the great big good that started it all is attempting to reach out to me personally. Out of all the other religions in the world, Jesus is the only one that had something free to give humanity, no strings attached.
Science, evolution, and all the idea's that man can come up with to explain creation and life or whatever is cool and I'm not going to pretend I understand any of it. The universe has been laid out before for us to discover. But I don't think that it's contrary to a creator who wants to have some sort of relationship with his creation.
So, yeah, I choose to believe in God, I choose to believe he's reaching out through Jesus. But I don't deny science or history or whatever. I just choose to believe in the greatest good and the greatest good I can find is Jesus.
That's fair, I guess, but I'm more interested in why it's important at all when there's no observable change on how you live. I suspect that you think that you act differently from non-Christians, but what Dewde is saying (I think) is that we're all more or less the same.
Also, why do you say that Jesus had the only no-strings-attached message? AFAICT, there are quite a few strings attached. At minimum you have to believe that he's the son of god and died for humanity and was resurrected (bodily) from the grave. Those seem like pretty big strings to me. Then add on the expectations of many church communities (tithes, evangelism, whatever), and you have a life based on those strings. Even if it's true and it's the best way to live, it's a big buy-in, IMO.
When I say strings, I guess I mean that his only requirement for acceptance into a relationship, friendship, with him is acknowledge that you believe in Jesus as opposed to all the other constructs that come with "religion" as a whole (i.e. church, tithes, etc.). So, yeah, you could consider mere belief as a string, but in comparison to all the man-made constructs that typically go with religions, it's pretty small.
I believe that there is an observable change in how a person lives after they truly believe in Jesus but I would also argue that it would be different dependent on the individual. I'm not going to limit that shift to moral behavior, or even say that any moral shift would occur because morals are universally given to everyone. But there may be other behaviors that could be apparent by a new found belief.
I won't even say that this is limited to the Christian experience because anytime someone finds a truth (and I would say truth is key) that they can understand and relate to, they will change themselves to be more aligned to that truth or deny it and run.
The problem we all face is our desire to cling desperately to the truths we already know. If more Christians could learn to understand the truth of discovery in science more Christians would be open to the wonders of Gods universe. If more scientists could be open to discovering things currently outside the realm of scientific scope and let their minds ponder spiritual truths, they may be more willing to acknowledge that maybe we aren't alone in this universe.
So observable change is destined to happen to anyone who begins to believe in Jesus. But it'll be different for everyone and it doesn't have to be a moral shift. The idea of Jesus and God is in fact the search for truth, if not in a purely scientific setting though science definitely aides in the how of creation and wonder of God.
If I could include one other observable shift, it would be a faith, a belief, that no matter what there is a good God and he loves us. Just this one truth can change someone when they truly believe it with all of their being.
Well, I don't buy your particular source of truth, but I can understand why you think that people might be happier, better people with some sort of emotional fulfillment and satisfaction like that. It's also nice to hear explicit affirmation of the truth as revealed through science. I have a personal relationship with science, I guess, and I am fascinated (and sort of disgusted) by people that deny observable, predictable, and repeatable experimental results and the inferences that can reasonably be made from those, often in the name of religion. I personally think that there's much more awe and wonder in real live science versus what can be derived from any religious text, but your perspective (as I see it, anyway) that the discoveries of science are just another vehicle for god to communicate with the world is probably the best middle ground I could think of.
Who the hell took the bee out of your bonnet? I don't know what's creepier… me agreeing with you or you being… amicable.
Keep it up and I'll block all your IP addresses. You serve a purpose here. This isn't it.
peace|dewde
Christianity is stupid. Christians are stupid. YOU are stupid!
Is that better?
Hell, I'm just kinda thrilled to see someone acknowledge science as a legitimate way to learn about the world. After that Facebook thread from a couple weeks ago, I'll take my moral victories where I can!
LOL!
I'm still sort of livid over <name redacted>'s summary rejection of evolution. I hope her medical degree serves her well, but the school that gave it to her didn't do anyone any favors. After that, the seemingly reasonable responses from the commenters here is a nice change.
Middle ground is good. If we can all continue to find middle ground while holding on to the search for truth, I think we'll all find a God that can be discovered through both faith and science who is waiting to share his love and goodness with us all.
God is so good and his goodness is shown in his being a Just God.
Dude. This is comedy. Keep up the good work!
Which definition of "just" is in play here? Do you get a "get out of jail free" card when you Capitalize Words?
Just (no pun intended) to be a little more specific, in particular, the early books of the old testament reveal a pretty harsh picture of the Christian god. He's a jealous, vindictive type, often focused on the minutiae of life and enumerating penalties for victimless crimes. Just is certainly not the right word for this character. Genesis is silly enough, but it gets much worse in Exodus and Leviticus. And these are the veritable foundational "histories" upon which Jesus builds his ministry? How is this a god of love rather than one of simple, base fear? Just because he helps certain people in certain situations doesn't mean he's just. How many people died at the hands of this just god in cases where there's no clear offense? Noah's flood? Residents of Sodom? Abraham's son Isaac (who admittedly lucked out)? Lot's wife… is it just to do this to someone just because she turned around? Think in context… you're being dragged out of your house by strange apparitions, the situation is apparently dire, you're flustered, you get nervous, look around, and wham. You're screwed. Forever. Nice job, Just God. Thanks for the arbitrary rule set. Woe to the person who considers fairness as the guiding principle in their lives when god's word is either so specific as to be silly (OTTOMH, leviticus 27) or so vague as to be useless (any so-called fulfillment of old testament prophecy as written in the new testament).
I just can't get enough. I'm just (there's that word again) reminded of my favorite rendering of the story of Lot from Genesis. What a great introduction to the family values in the Bible. Lest you accuse me of cherrypicking indiscriminately, there is plenty more where that came from. BTW, how CAN you paint this story in a favorable light without total disregard of the text?
http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/the_sedu…
I "just" want to point out something that has been bugging me lately. People on both sides of the science vs religion argument who merely regurgitate what they've been told by "people who are famous" instead of reading it themselves to make up their minds. If one more politician quotes an obscure portion of the bible, out of context, to validate their argument for anything on either side I think my head will explode. This idea that we can listen to someone who agrees with our point of view, steal their reasoning and adopt it as our own without ever having even READ about it ourselves is mind-numbingly stupid. Who can I throw a rock at? I think I am aiming it a someone on t.v. between 6-7 pm… pick a news station. Wait… Keith Obermann or Rush Limbaugh. I'll start a voting process here.
Okay. I take back my last post. I really should not watch CNN when stranded on an airplane.
I did have a point to your original post. Its very hippy-ish, blame my trip to California. My thought about atheism is different than what you listed. Every time I see something beautiful or experience pure joy, my heart leaps. All on its own, and with no logical thought or action on my part, it sings. I have always interpreted this as my soul singing praise to my creator. I wonder what people who don't believe in a creator do with this when it happens. I think it happens to everyone, I just wonder what others interpret it as. In my mind, its a heavenly experience and when it happens, it makes me wish it could happen to everybody, so it makes me sad to think otherwise. For instance, when I saw Crater Lake for the first time, or when Lily opened her eyes the first time, or the still quietness when I smell my dad out of no where.
Ugh. Wave a wand, I'm an engineer again.
Don't take back that post, Wendy… you're being reasonable!
As the unofficial godless representative of Dewde's blog, I must confess that I also feel some sense of awe in seeing many of nature's wonders. Of course you want to share it with others. It's like a secret that you just can't bear to keep inside. It can be magical without being supernatural. Things don't have to be divinely inspired to be important. Crater Lake is an awesome sight unlike anywhere else in the world. Even if you totally disregarded any religious vibes, there's plenty of geology, history, and clean air to get you excited. I've never been there, but I thought Arenal was really cool in Costa Rica, and for cool lakes, Tahoe is gorgeous. I'd venture to say that almost everyone gets the same sense of awe and that it's independent of what you attribute the awe to.
Funny thing about Christians – they're just as messed up as the rest of us, but they hold themselves to a higher standard.
It's not fair to call them weak or hypocritical for failing to live up to that standard. Really, it's quite brave – an attempt to reach for the stars even when they know that success is virtually impossible.
I reserve the right to call the Westboro Baptist Church folks weak and hypocritical though. Jerks.
Isn't Dewde's point that everyone is pretty equally good/screwed? I don't think I can agree that Christians as a group necessarily hold themselves to a higher standard than non-christians. Sure, some are crazy motivated and fill their lives with good deeds, but don't you think other groups can have similar motivation? Humanism proclaims the same "good deeds" goals, doesn't it? Why wouldn't there be equally enthusiastic humanists?
I admit I'm not well-versed in Fred Phelps and his gang, but I always thought they weren't all that hypocritical. They talk the stupid talk, and they walk the stupid walk. They do seem to claim that Bible verses support their ideas, so they do seem to follow a brand of Christianity that's based on scripture. Their anti-gay stance is only a little more radical than many other prominent evangelical groups', IMO. They just stick out more because they're such in-your-face assholes about it.
Now, *Landover* Baptist… those guys…
Everyone *is* equally screwed as far as I can tell.
There are a lot of Christians that don't seem to be Christians. As a rule I judge people by how they act, not by what they say as words are cheap. But Christians do have a higher standard – the one set by Jesus – and I find it highly respectable that they try to live by that standard.
Now there are a lot of Christians that don't even try to live by that standard, and while I won't say so to their face, I don't think they're Christians at all. Words mean nothing.
The Phelps gang most certainly is not scripturally sound. Jesus did not condone many of the actions they take. Sure there's a lot of Old Testament stuff that they lean on, but even then I bet it's twisted. And to think they're not more radical? That's stupid man. How many churches say "we opposed the homosexual lifestyle" as compared to the number that go to the funerals of homosexuals and hold up signs saying "GOD HATES FAGS"? Sorry, they're way off the chart.
Great writing and great insight as always Chris. I've always found questions like the ones you mentioned quite ironic, because they are so… selfish? They're reward and punishment based, "do this and pay" or "do anything because there is no punishment," that's not a very "christian" way to examine one's motivations.
But it happens.
I suppose what's more of note is the particular motive or thought behind it. Too often Christians focus on what we have to "give up" now for "reward" later. Sure that's a piece of the equation but surely not the crux of a conversion. Christianity is to me the true "way" of the universe. It is the melody of creation and the harmony of existence. It's not about making choices to avoid consequences but to make choices to live more in tune with the real truth of existence.
Excellent food for thought. You should start a blog
.
peace|dewde
"Atheists are not so shallow and immoral as you might expect."
I often think one of the biggest mistakes we as Christians make is thinking that all atheists are raging pagans: Getting drunk, shooting hard drugs, pushing old ladies over, robbing banks, etc.
Some of the atheists I know are actually a lot nicer than me. Probably more moral in some ways. Thanks for posting this.
Now we know who the ssnieble one is here. Great post!